Where to get air in Madison?

[John H. Moore]

Hydros are actually something under discussion off-and-on for the past couple weeks on my San Diego diving email list. A couple people got volunteered to gather info, call shops, call non-dive shop places which do hydro's, etc., and report back.

It seems that in San Diego, at least, the dive shops all send tanks out to welding supply type businesses for hydro. If you bring your tank directly to such a shop, most-but-not-all will VIP it for you if you ask (but they may not unless you ask). Otherwise, it goes back to the dive shop, where they will do the VIP. This, plus general desire-for-profit-issues, may dictate the separate charges for hydro and VIP.

The topic came up in San Diego because often hydros take way too long for active divers who don't have a garage full of tanks, so some have looked to go directly to the hydro source. Turns out to be about half the cost and turn-around times of a couple days.

Again, I'm speaking generally and know nothing about the Wisconsin scuba industry.

Re the charge for fills when VIP-ing: In years past in San Diego, I never paid for an air fill when having the tank VIP'd, it was part of the VIP. In more recent years the more corporate shops have been charging for air in addition to the VIP charge. Then again, several non-corporate shops have changed to not charging for air at all. One doesn't even charge for nitrox at standard mixes below 40%. But... these are different markets; air is significantly more expensive here.

As to the question about paying tax on air fills in California: no, I never did. But keep in mind that sales tax is determined by a combination of state, county, and municipal laws, so there's no necessary relationship between here and there. Got my first Wisconsin fill yesterday and did not pay tax. But in both cases it's always possible that the tax is built into the price and thus invisible to us as consumers.

But... heck, I still am not sure whether my Cheerios are taxed in Wisconsin, nonetheless arcane things! ;-)

John
now with air but still too dang dry!

[FreediveWI]

When I did my instructor training, in L.A., we visited a local dive shop that did it's own hydro's. They had some pretty intensive equipment that included a pipe driven into the ground and re-enforced in cement. They had a special machine to hook up the tank, fill it full of water, and then drop it down the water filled pipe to pump it up to pressure- while the pipe was capped off in case of explosion. Pretty neat stuff, but way out of reach for most dive shops. I don't know of a single shop in the state that can do it's own hydros on site.

Most shops send them out to the same place you get your fire extinguishers hydro'd. They aren't always the cleanest when they come back and that may be part of the vis process. Aluminums should be eddy tested anyhow- which takes time and costs money for the machine, and steel tanks can pass hydro, but still have steel flaking off the inside.

Fills are usually taxed because it is a product that the store sells. Classes should not be taxed, but books for classes should.

As far as prices go it depends upon where you are. Pirarte's Cove offers free VIP's once a year for all of it's club memebers. Prices for fills are all over the board- as has been demonstrated in other posts. The bigger the city, or the more volume the store does, the cheaper they are.

Usually, the bigger the market, the better the service. This is why Milwaukee can is so far ahead of Madison, and the Twin Cities are ahead of Milwaukee- more people better products and prices.

All of this is just one more reason to freedive in my book. Actually, my best freediving buddy, Ted, told me that once he finished up his openwater class he added up the cost of gear, fills, hydro's, vip's, annual regualtor service, and decided it was just easier to hold his breath- of course it helps that he has a 6 minute breath hold.

Jon

[Bubblemaker]

As far as the hydro the person doing the hydro is required by DOT to do a Visual Inspection on the Cylinder if it is used for breathing purposes.

It would be ineresting to find out if the place thats doing Hydros in Wi is actually licenced to do Scuba cylinders. I know that having a stamp for Fire Ext. is not the same for Scuba.

K

As far as tax on air. Its not a product of a dive shop becaues you cant inventory it. Even if you store in a bank system. You never get the same amount on a fill. if the store would drain your tank and re fill completly then you could tax on a complete fill.

I only say this because I had the pleasure of having a Tax board audit at my shop in California.

K

[FreediveWI]

The places that do hyrdo's do all kinds of tanks- co2, welding, scuba, fire exstinguishers.

I never heard the rule about hydro places being responsible for visuals- as I have never seen a vip sticker on an 02 bottle filled with aviators 02 which is meant to be breathed.

VIP's are dive industry ideas- just like c-cards. There is no law that states you must have a c-card to scuba dive- that's a dive industry self-regulation giude-line to prevent people from killing themselves and giving us all a bad name. No DOT laws for those- just hydro's.

Gas fills can be metered for sale- as I have paid by the cubic foot for gasses in the past. This is especially true for argon, 02, and helium fills.

Many of the more advanced shops can do tops offs and only charge you for the gas used- which is where a helium analyzer really comes in handy so you don't have to dump out any trimix to remix on top of it. It saves so much money to just pay for the helium you add compared to dumping/pumping a whole set of doubles.


Jon

[divegeek]

The way I understand this issue is that the dive shop will send the tank out for the hydro, but the hydro place doesn't have any trained inspectors to do the VIP. I think the reason the shops charge for the VIP after the hydro at one shop I go to, is that they change the tank neck and valve o-rings, and also inspect the dip tube. I had one of the old US divers plastic tubes that had shattered inside my tank, and they replaced it with a stainless one for free. I'm not sure the hydro folks would be aware of how to do that, or even how to get those parts. Plus, at another shop my tank came back from the hydro place still wet inside.

[Bubblemaker]

Yes you are right A VIP (Visiual Inspection Program) is a Scuba Diving only program. Which anyone can do. Which is true and not true. A vip sticker has no markings on it to say a certified Insp did the VIP only a month and year stamp and some advertising info if it comes from a shop. So in this day and age all you need is a computer and some stickers to print the info on.

Yes there is a agency PSI (Professional Scuba Inspector) that does training for Inspectors of tanks. But when you get a fill all the filler is looking at is the month and year not if the insp was done by a cert. insp. Same with a hydro unless you know the code numbers for the hydro stamps will you know if the hydro place is set up to do Diving cylinders.

They way you find out is if someone has an accident with a Cylinder ( meaning it ruptures or fails) and DOT is called in and they find out the place that did the hydro is Cert. to do them.

If the tanks are coming back wet or dirty then I would have to assume the place is not cert. to do breathing HP cylinders, Most other gases like argon and co2 and helium and 02 are 2250 series tanks which are usually steel. Newer Fire Ext and SCBA bottles are Alum with carbonfiber wrapping and Higher Pressures which require different testing equipment all together.

Getting back on the Hydro thing a cylinder needs to be insp first before it is hydro'd becuses if the tank has rust pits or corrision it needs to be tumbled first before it is hydro'd also a tank can be condemed if it is cracked or damaged.

K

[Weston]

this seems like a good idea for dive shops:


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