Ice Diving

[ttph]

So, I went ice diving on Lake Geneva this past weekend. Quite interesting, the whole process that is. I have several questions:

1. Although you're hooked to a tender, shouldn't you still dive buddies? I got down to about 60ft, where it was dark and desolate, and realized that if something happened I may be in a bit of trouble. Sure, I could give three tugs and come shooting to the surface, but what about solving your problems at depth and then deciding if you can reasonably continue?

2. Is there a trick to avoiding free-flows? I had several. I dive Apeks primary and octo, both sealed. Even in the summer, I tend to drop like a rock rather than gently lower myself to the bottom, by choice. I found that when I descended in the same manner, my octo tended to start flowing. Can the pressure in the first 5 ft or so change enough that it pushes against the purge valve on the 2nd stage and begins the whole process? *Side note- it seemed that when I went down more gradually, all was right with the world*

3. How much insulation is enough? I typically bake in the summer w/ Thinsulate undergarments, and at 100+ feet where the temp is usually 37-39'F, I'm quite comfortable. I ran the same set-up this past weekend and on dive #1, I could tell it was cold; #2 I was cold; #3 I was beginning to shiver towards the end. *Side note- my tragic flaw seemed to be that I put the underwear on prior to leaving the house, figuring I would just wear the undies below my Carhartt bibs 'til we got set up, then change into my drysuit. I think I must have worked up just enough of a sweat to make my undies damp, then froze during my surface intervals. * If I dive exactly the same, but wait until I am ready to dive to put my underwear on, may that be enough?

Matt

[dfreeman]

Maybe a start to some answers.

!.  I usually ice dive with a buddy.  Sometimes you get separated.  I try to be redundant enough to feel confident during separations.  If I am not comfortable, it is time to get out of there.  I am sure others will have stronger opinions.

2.  I use Posidien X-Streams and have not experienced a free flow.  I have seen a lot of Apeks freeflow.  I suspect it has to do with the intermediate pressure setting.  Others are much more knowledgeable about this than me.  I am sure I will be corrected and suggestions will be given about where I should put my X-Stream.

3.  How long were your dives?  I think that wearing your underwear ahead of time can cause problems from sweating, but you will evetually feel the cold.  I often do 80 to 90 minute dives under winter conditions and feel the cold but survive.

Maybe not much help here but I am sure that others will pipe in.

Doug

[ttph]

My dives were all about 15-20 minutes long. There were 8 divers, so for anyone to stay as long as their tank pressure would allow would have taken several days worth of tending. I was tagging along on an ice diving cert. class, so dive #1 was just getting familiar, #2 was just for fun, #3 was lost diver drills.

Matt

[Chris H]

As I mentioned in a different recent post, Doug spends more time underwater than anyone else I know.  Poseidon regulators seem to hold up very well in cold conditions.  I used Poseidon for many years without issue.  I now use Scubapro MK25/G250V regulators and I've had them in a wide variety of conditions without issues.
Other friends are using Apeks also without issues.  The best thing you can do with whatever regs you are using, is have them tuned by somebody who uses them like you do.  This typically involves an IP setting at the lower end of the manufacturer's recommendations and perhaps some others tricks too.  Greg Such at Shipwreck Adventures can get your Apeks regs working well in tough conditions.

Your comfort level under the ice may have also contributed to your free flow.  Comfort just comes with diving.  One longer dive may have kept you warmer than a few short ones.

Staying warm is another issue.  I wear quality long underwear as a base layer and Weezle Extreme Plus insulation.  Also just added a heated vest.

Whatever you end up with, keep having fun and the rest of it will fall in line.

Chris

[matt t.]

We ALWAYS dive with competent buddies, but if you are ice diving you should also have a redundant rig. Either doubles or a pony bottle will work. If it's a pony bottle, rig it in a manner that will allow you access to the valve (back mounting is not a good idea). On the regs the IP should be 135 "ish", and the 2nd stage can be reset a little tighter. Another tip is to NOT breath the regs at all until you are in the hole ready to dive. This will keep moisture out of the 2nd stage. If you have a free flow, sometimes you can shut the valve down and the water will thaw the reg out. Layer your underwear with a good quality moisture wicking 1st layer (NOT cotton). We usually get out of our suits during surface intervals if possible (unless the zippers are to iced up to work). By standing in the wind in a "wet" suit you are cooling off (I forget the correct name for this process).

[ttph]

I just had both my primary and octo in for annual service prior to the weekend. We checked IP prior and found 150, so it was reset to 140.

Matt

[Colin]

Even in the summer, I tend to drop like a rock rather than gently lower myself to the bottom, by choice. I found that when I descended in the same manner, my octo tended to start flowing. Can the pressure in the first 5 ft or so change enough that it pushes against the purge valve on the 2nd stage and begins the whole process? *Side note- it seemed that when I went down more gradually, all was right with the world*

Something else to think about....if you are indeed dropping quickly due to being overweighted, then inflating your drysuit with a lot of air to compensate and then at the same time breathing a little heavy will cause the air flow from the first stage to dramatically increase, thereby causing a free flow. Remember, when air expands it cools off......Resetting the IP to a lower pressure may help. But perhaps descending slower and/or dropping some weight may also help.

Colin.

[ttph]

Something to think about, I guess. My weight is pretty close (ending a dive, I exhaust all air or I can't stay down for a safety stop). I tend to drop slower on deep dives, as I've found quick descents tend to roll on narcosis a little harder (for me, I feel anxious and "impending doom").

During dive #1, I found I had to push myself down off the ice about 5 ft before I would start sinking (I made sure all air was out, and still had floating tendencies). I added 1 lb in each pocket, which seemed to help on dive #2. I noticed that the freeflow always occured between 0-6 ft, which leads me to believe that the pressure increase was just enough to press on the purge valve and open the second stage. At 0-6 ft, I didn't even touch the inflators on the suit or wing (actually, my arm was still up making sure I was getting the last little bit out of the cuff dump).

I appreciate all of your comments thus far, and I think a portion of it will have to be chalked up to "first ice dive" inexperience.

I was only probing to see if there were any quick answers or obvious faults in my procedures.

Thanks,
Matt

[moneysavr]

Matt,
First, As a ice diver I second you should dive with a buddy and with this sport to me it has a shaky classification because it definitely falls into a confined space with no direct ascent to surface if you move away from the entry point and this leads me to consider it more  towards Cavern / Cave certification aspect and two training dives IMO just don't cut it!  so some questions asked should be rethought as covered material you may of missed? That said a buddy is just a great idea,But that said I second you should be self sufficient no matter when you dive or were you dive so as said doubles,or a slung pony with a environmentally sealed regulator live or in the on position is a no brain-er.

And having your dry suit underwear on early they got damp and made you cold due to loss of insulation properties IMO

Second you mention recently serviced Apex reg Set's and free flow and no need to go over regulators as each diver has a preference but as said your problem will not be free flowing from purge buttons pressing in on seconds,,  its coming most undoubtedly from your first stage unit and leading to creep up in IP causing a free flow in a second stage, reducing your IP may or will help,
Last a great winter read may help you understand your regulators more clearly,Even if you don't plan to work on them your self, But at some time may chose to! and the end of the book the author covers regulators that work and those that just don't as well,,Vance Harlow's

SCUBA REGULATOR MAINTENANCE AND REPAIR

Dive safe,
Brad