Ice Diving

[mndiver]

Hello all you ice divers....  I posted this question on MNScuba and did not got much response. I hope I can get more here. 

I really love ice diving.  It is great to drive up to the dive site and jump in.  No boat to tow, better vis, no $@*#&$) sailboats!  What's not to love?

In an never ending quest to satisfy my curiosity I have a question.  How do you ice dive?  What procedures, equipment, percautions and so on do you use?  Any books on the subject you like? Best place to get gear?  I have heard of several methods from; two down on one rope, one down using a cave reel, one down on one rope, attaching the rope below/on top of the ice and so on......  I know how I do it, but it never hurts to learn from others.  So again, how do you ice dive.

Chris

[Omicron]

Typically something like this...

Cut a triangular hole in the ice, and shove the plug of ice under the ice (for later retrieval) - a heck of a lot easier than cutting up the ice into chunks and pulling them out.  You can just prod it underwater with a shovel or two.

Shovel 3 lines of snow off the ice, away from the triangular hole.  Put arrow lines coming off the big line, pointing towards the hole.  Occasionally shovel circles around the hole for more light.

For ropes - 1 safety line, which is twice as long as the regular diving lines.  To secure the lines, we screw titanium ice screws into the ice, and tie locking carabiners into the ends of the ropes using a bowline knot backed up with an overhand knot.  The carabiners lock into the ice screws.

Same thing for the diver - bowline backed w/ an overhand, with a locking carabiner.  The carabiner is attached to the divers BC if it's got the right d-rings, otherwise they wear a webbed harness that we can clip the biner to.  We put a small loop in the rope so the diver can hang onto it and use the tug signals.

We put our ropes on those garden hose reels - makes deploying/stowing the rope a snap.

**NOTE**  This part of my post is where I'm supposed to warn you to not do what I'm going to write about...so don't try it, and don't blame me if you do.

However...for the past year or two, I'm pretty much of the opinion "screw the ropes".  Give me a couple of ice screws for line tie offs and I'll just take my primary reel.  I'm self sufficient, I'm not relying on some overeager linetender that is pulling me backwards/sideways....i rely on my reels to get back from thousands of feet into a cave...ice isn't a challenge compared to that.

[Chris H]

That was kind of funny... ;D

My favorite ice diving is with Wazee Sports.  They cut the hole and provide food and hot chocolate.    My second favorite is on the Len-Der, driving through the ice to get to a wreck....that might be my favorite.  DFK.

[mndiver]

Regarding using a cave reel under the ice.  I get the part about "don't try this, and don't blame me if you do!" So if anyone else is thinking about doing this please understand that this discussion is not a subsitute for real training an your own judgement.

I have heard the same statement from several cave divers regarding using a reel and it has sparked my interest.  I am not cave certified so I would appreciate a little info.  I have also seen on the web that a Canadian company offered ice certification classes using a reel instead of a line.  When I e-mailed them, I did not get a response. 

I am interested in how using cave emergency/safety procedures equates to diving in a lake under the ice.  I know that both are overhead environments but in general that is where the similarity stops. From what little I know about caves they are basically tubes filled with water you swim in.  Ice covered lakes are big bowls of water with a lid on them.  So if I recall from my limited reading on the subject, if you for whatever reason become separated from the line, you have set procedures to find the line and your way out.  You are trained even to do this in zero vis (no light, no mask, silt out and so on).   So if you loose the line while ice diving, what procedures would you use to find your way out and how to they translate to "diving in a big bowl" of water instead of a tube of water? 

Thanks in advance for your info.

[Omicron]

It made for an interesting dive, that's for sure.


mndiver - as far as how it goes.  Don't drop your reel, is essentially the deal.  And honestly, if you drop your reel on an average ice dive...how far is it going to drop?  Swim back down and pick it back up.  It's a risk that is within my personal comfort level.  You don't swim through a cave holding onto the line either - and while some of the tunnels are tube-like, they come in a myriad of shapes that's never conducive to just turning around and heading back out the way you came.

A lot of the things you learn in cave training wouldn't be needed under the ice...  lost line drills, lights out drills, etc.  Ice diving is a lot simpler in my mind - hold onto the reel, and swim.  When you are done, reel back up   Siltouts aren't a concern - just swim away.  Lights aren't a concern - you dive during the day.  Out of air w/ a ceiling isn't a concern - you are just about in open water.  If you have a partner, share air and head up.  If not, you could even pull a CESA by just swimming up your line.  Lost line...kind of a concern - but that one is more personal risk acceptance I think. 

A big thing with the ropes ice diving is to make sure, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the diver is not going to lose their way back, they can be pulled back in, and they can be rescued.  I can see the point of it, to an extent.  It feels a little babysitterish to me, but that's just me.  If that's what I gotta do to ice dive with a group, that's what I'll do.  I enjoy hanging out on the ice all day with a fun group to miss out, just because I wanted to use a reel

If you have anymore questions, fire away.  I've been thinking about this for awhile and it's neat to know a few others were too...  I know a few divers that do this actually, and that's kinda what got me thinking about it.

[Dewit2it]

I was one of those overeager tenders! ;D  I felt three tugs on the line and pulled the guy backwards.  We were skiing on the ice at the time and he got the rope between his legs.  I had it on video, but I can't find the tape.

Myself, I would rather go without the tender on the line except when skiing.  As long as the rope is anchored well, you shouldn't have to worry about loosing your line/hole.  It would be similar to river diving in the Fox just before Skumbago breaks up.  Then I use an innertube/flag that I can't pull under and a line around my wrist.  If I get under the ice, I'll know when my wrist stops.  A biner thru the backpack would probably be better.

A better knot would be one of the figure eight knots that climbers use.  When wet it takes an axe to remove them.

[dfreeman]

Love that ice diving.  Looking forward to the Wazee Sport Dives.

I perfer rope versus line.  Like the yellow for contrst in the picture.  The rest is probably a weird rope fetish that is more apprpriate for a different forum.

See you ice diving.

Doug

[Omicron]

You sick puppy

We need to go get some diving in Doug!  I'm kinda jonesing for a clear Wazee....it's usually nice this time of year.

[dfreeman]

Jason,

Let me know when you have somw free time.

We can take a dive before it freezes up.

Doug

[Omicron]

Probably not until after gun season knowing both of us...but definitely would like to get out there before it freezes.