+- wiscuba.com (http://www.wiscuba.com/forum)
+--- Thread: DIR Details (/showthread.php?tid=170)
DIR Details - Deep Blue - 12-03-2003
Everyone,
I have posted below Puddlejumper's response to my email originally posted under Deco Procedures so we can start some discussion on DIR specifics.
Specifically addressing the issue of a balanced rig, this goes to the heart of the DIR concept as I understand it. You need to dive the appropriate equipment for the environment. For example, if you correctly balance your equipment, ie. do not dive steel tanks with a wetsuit, or aluminum tanks with a drysuit, you have no need for double wings, or wings that are overly large and trap air.
As much as possible, you should be able to swim your gear to the surface even with a failure of your BC. If you are diving aluminum doubles, and you dump any stages, a weight belt and possibly your light, you should be able to at least get to the point where your suit is bouyant enough to get you to the surface.
If you are diving dry, ditchable weight is not as much an issue, since you already have backup bouyancy control via your drysuit. However, a steel plate may not be the best choice if you already don't have any releasable weight, since it makes you unnecessarily negative. Personally, I dive an aluminum plate with my steel tanks for this very reason.
The more air you need to put into your BC, the less efficient you will be in the water, and the poorer your trim will be.
Again, in my opinion, there is no need for any BC on a single tank more than 45 pounds and most people should not need more than 30 pounds if they are properly weighted, (which most open water divers are not). If you are diving doubles, a 55 pound BC designed for double tanks is more than sufficient.
While I am on the topic, just as a ferrari is a butt kicking vehicle on the autobahn, but may not be the best choice for driving the Rubicon trail, BCs wings are similarly suited for different configurations. I have never seen a double tank BC, ie the DiveRite classic wings or (shudder) the OMS bungee wings used efficiently on a single tank. Will they get you out of the water alive? Most likely but will they do it efficiently? no. A much better choice is a wing designed for a single tank, ie a DiveRite Venture wing or a Halcyon Pioneer wing. If you dive doubles, choose a wing designed for doubles. That is the beauty of the backplate system, you can easily change aircells based on your needs, one backplate, 2 aircells. If you are getting into diving seriously enough that you will be diving doubles, you really need to fork out the extra 300 dollars for a proper wing.
The same goes for the double redundant wing. Will it kill you? Probably not, but it is unnecessary complication which adds failure points to your rig. Extra hoses, extra inflator, etc etc. Dive a properly balanced rig and you avoid the complications. I have seen the extra inflator take off on a diver who then made an uncontrolled ascent. Ok, don't keep it hooked up, but then if you don't test it every dive, how can you be sure that it will work when you need it? and why do you keep an extra hose on your first stage to complicate your hose routing?
Properly configured divers will have a lift bag on any serious dive of at least 50 # anyway, if you do damage your BC and your drysuit at the same time, use your lift bag as a third backup source of bouyancy. I have done it in training and it works!!! Now you are using a piece of equipment that you already need and are not taking extra stuff into the water. Dive DIR-avoid the christmas tree look.
>Posted by: Puddlejumper yesterday:
I breathe and donate the long hose.
Yep I dive a back plate (both soft pack and back plate depending on the need) and wings (though I have a dual wing ).
Personal Fitness. No disagreements here.
Team diving philosophy. Seems about right. Though a good team should IMHO work this out over many dives before diving something serious.
Properly balanced rigs? Standardized Equipment Cinfigurations? Starting to get there. What constitutes a properly balanced rig? IMHO this should be based on an individual divers requirments. Also the diving conditions have a large impact on this as well. This ties into a standardized rig as well. Example in point I dive a set of doubles on a OMS stainless back plate. I use a dive rite dual rec wing with 51# lift. I am diving a Apexs 200 right post (long hose with a stainless clip attatched -cave line). My dry suit inflation comes from my right post. My SPG is on my left post and has a cover as well as a retractor. My cannister light is attatched to my back plate right side. And my drusuit gas (when I will need it ) will be attatched to my left with the dreaded metal on metal connection that I also use for my light. This is not a DIR rig as my understanding goes. But what will make me a "cluster" or unsafe diver here.
>Posted by: Deep Blue Posted on: Yesterday at 05:26:08pm
How can the fact that DIR is an outgrowth of the Hogarthian configuration be a reason not to ascribe to its principals? Also, the commonly held perception of a stroke is an unsafe diver. I am very selective of who I do any serious diving with, I won't do those dives with unsafe divers. I would love to really understand your true issues with the system on a logical basis. What do you not like about the system itself?
Breathing and donating the long hose?
Backplate and wings configuration?
Properly balanced rigs?
Standardized equipment configurations?
Personal fitness?
Team diving philosophy?
I am not trying to throw bombs here, I genuinely would like to have a dialog on the merits of the system, not the noise that tends to surround it.
If there is enough interest, I know that both Jon and I would be happy to have a discussion in the advanced diving forum.
Re:DIR Details - puddlejumper1 - 12-03-2003
Ahh Grasshopper I see me point.
This is the same reasoning that I have received before. The reason I elected to go with dual wing has nothing to do with same dive redundancy. I'll give you an example. I dive on a regular basis in out of the way locations. Isle Royale, The Keeweenaw etc. If I am diving and do have a failure of my wing. Lets say a seam lets go. Now I do not have my scond wing hooked up. I do not even have an extra hose for it on my reg. I would use my drysuit as my redundant way to reach the surface. I still have drop weights and would look at dropping them if necessary only. Now I have made it to the surface and found everything ok. What about my afternoon dive? Redundancy is not only for the dive you are on but for multiple dives. In this scenario having an extra bladder will keep me diving with out major repairs (in the case of a split seam no repair). Now I could just purchase an extra bladder and have it in my save a dive kit but this works just as well for my diving needs. I do not have any intentions of ever having to use it on that dive but I really do not want to call a dive trip for not having a back up. Oh and I removed the bungeed part of my wings long ago. My point here is I got the standard answer but it really did not apply to my diving situation. Now some people can say gee I really would not do it that way I would purchase an extra bladder etc. But it seems to me that DIR says no this is incorrect there is no other way so you are now a stroke etc. (you do not walk up to someone and say god what an ugly minivan who would want one of those...only to find ut the the person has 6 kids)
Re:DIR Details - FreediveWI - 12-03-2003
I have never had that problem in 20+ years of diving. I HAVE had power inflators go and always carry an extra one in my tool box on extended trips.
I may have a little more laid-back attitude about this since we used to dive our drysuits without any BC's at all when I started out. I know for a fact that it will bring me back up- even if it has a whole in it as well.
If your putting holes in your BC you should really look at your technique in the water. You could also add an inertube to the inside of your Bc to give it some extra protection- see the GUE or WKPP sites to see how this is done.
Jon
Re:DIR Details - puddlejumper1 - 12-03-2003
;D Jon don't tkae this the wrong way but. You just responded right past my post. First before we discuss my dive technique. What I stated was lets assume a seam failure. This is not as uncommon as you may think. I have seen far more internal failures than anything. Protection is not even necessary in this case. Halcyon has a known instance of this for example. This is not because of technique. Plus Sh..t happens and I make a living in a business were things break unexpectedly. So my seam gives way/ or rubber fatigue or we hit a big wave and gear flys loose and hits it, whatever. If this were to happen in day two of a 7 day trip to Isle Royale I have a back up for the next 5 days. Absolutely my dry suit will get me back to the surface. Yes I can swim the way back up. Do I want to go diving the next day (if it is unrepairable ) YES! And more importantly I have a redundant system once again to dive with. My second wing and my drysuit.
And again you may feel you could do this a different way. But what in this constitutes me being a stroke ie unsafe diver. It just doesn't
Re:DIR Details - Chris H - 12-03-2003
Quote:
And again you may feel you could do this a different way. But what in this constitutes me being a stroke ie unsafe diver. It just doesn't
Quote:
You are the one who said you were a stroke. Not anyone else.
How many BC falures of any kind have you personally seen? I'm not talking about something you read on the internet or wherever. If you, in the relatively few dives you have done, (and I don't say that to be offensive) have seen internal failures you need to look at some different gear or re-think how you are handling it.
If you are that concerned about a failure, pick up an extra wing and be done with it. You could buy it in parts because you already have an extra inflator assembly ;D
Re:DIR Details - FreediveWI - 12-03-2003
What I meant by dive technique is when i see divers with improper bouyancy skills, or trim, scrape along every piece of rusted metal they can find on a shipwreck. Adjusting your bouyancy can make a big diffrence.
As far as sudden BC failure I think your making a issue out of nothing. As Chris said, if your BC is in that bad of shape to begin with just bring an extra wing. OR, you could dive in buddy teams and borrow someone elses wing when they hit the surface. Since most wings are interchangeable with most backplates this wouldn't be a problem. That being siad, I know a lot of divers who are diving some really old BC's and haven't had any problems.
As far as a seam going out there's always aqauseal to get you through. I have always used Dive-Rite wings for my doubles which have seperate inner and outer bags. I believe that the new halcyon's are also made like this. Ti makes it very easy to get inside an patch up something.
If I were trying to plan for everysingle non-event in deep diving I would wear a wetsuit under my drysuit, have H-vlaves on all of my deco bottles, carry 3 cansiter ights and 6 back-ups.
The main DIR/holgarthian guys have already broken down gear failures that happened in the real world and came up with the number of safties that they have. Adding in extra things just causes more probelms than it's worth. George has written a very nice article about this very same idea and it's on the GUE website.
Jon
Re:DIR Details - puddlejumper1 - 12-03-2003
We are digressing here IMHO. So far I have found a lot of reasons why you would all not dive that way. But no reasons why it is not safe. Anyone? Yes I have not had a wing failure but yes I have a dive partner who has (Halcyon) and it had a whole 5-6 dives on it. I do carry an extra wing.
I'm not thinking Chris that you would want to drag that extra wing on that cattle boat we dove up in Mackinac. How about trying to switch out a wing while on it. So my wing starts leaking? Sit out the second dive? By the way in case you do not recall. My policy is that I only add something to my save a dive kit if I or a dive partner I am diving with encountered a failure. Trying to pack a wing is going to be fun.BTW I also boat redundant with three props. Full tool kit extra filters, Oil, Anchors, Cap & Rotor, plugs, wires etc. (now if I could just figure out where to put the extra gas). I have needed only one extra filter in all my years (could have used the x-tra gas last year ;D) However funny how I have had to give out bulbs, a sparkplug, fuel filter, and wire all while on trips.
Face facts guys mechanical sh.t breaks. Just because it hasn't happened to you yet do not think it won't otherwise why dual posts with an isolator. In my limited diving I have yet to encounter or dive with someone who has a failure that requires shutting down a post or such a catastrophic failure that would require shutting down the isolator.
Re:DIR Details - FreediveWI - 12-03-2003
I agree with you that stuff breaks, and that;s one of the reasons I switched to DIR from the way I was diving. Things that have broken the most on me are:
1- dive computers- all makes and types
2- regualtor freeflows- which means that you need to do a valve shutdown
3- camera strobes- the sync cords are notorious for this
4- lights- halogen, HID, and back up's- they all break eventually
5- cameras- always at the wrong time
6- drysuits- minor holes here and there
I have never had a BC bladder failure, but the ripcord system on my Zeagle's would dump my weight when just swimming along- that's why I got rid of mine. I also had a bad power inflaotr on my old At-pac.
Once upon a time, I used to dive dual wings, we used to stack them up before anyone designed a redundant bladder, but stopped using them because I never had a problem.
I can see how you got spooked because of your incident, but I would still feel comfortable calling it a very rare problem that warrants a repair from the manufaturer for free, rather than carrying an extra on every dive I do.
I choose not to dive with one simply because that's one extra piece of kit to go wrong and I know that I can always borrow someone elses on the boat.
Acutally, since everyone I dive with is also DIR we can switch our kit around without a second thought. We have switched out second, and first, stages on our deco bottles on the spot before a deep dive becasue the snow had caused some of the scubapro's to freeze up. Since everyone has their I.P.'s set the same you can switch things around without a problem, and you don't need to worry about special hoses like some upstream reg's have.
I have done trips to out of the way places where I even carried along an extra drysuit, but I didn't have it on the boat with me. It stayed back at camp and I could redo things at the end of the day.
The biggest problems have been with computers. At one point in time I carried three on me, all made by diffrent companies, just to bail me out if something went bad, but I soon found it just palin eaiser to use my watch and the tables I had to bail me out. I got rid of the computers and haven't looked back. A simple bottom timer and a wetnote book in your pocket can get you out of a lot of jams that a $900 computer never could.
Jon
Re:DIR Details - puddlejumper1 - 12-03-2003
OK I am absolutely sure now. Yep make that positive. You and Deep Blue just love and endorse all forms of dive computers! Yes sir re Bob you guys are the darlings of the dive computer industry! ;D
Just for the clarification I do in fact have a dive computer. A Suunto Vyper to be exact. And as we all know since we paid attention in decompression procedures class instead of making sure my SPG hose was exactly 21" (I am kidding you guys here) we know that the Suunto computers use RGBM as a decompression model. This particular computer makes a lovely back up to my tables for anything under 130' and for those dives I do not complete over that a very expensive bottom timer.
BTW Jon I hope you are at least using a back up bottom timer as well (though since you are a self proclaimed DIR ) I would think so.
Re:DIR Details - FreediveWI - 12-03-2003
I use a Stinger, in guage mode, and a D-3 on all my dives.
BTW: the computer I had the most problems with was a Sunnto Solution. I also had problems with Uwatec's, and montiors, plus some of the early sherwoods- made by pelagic systems.
It really stinks when you computer goes out on you with 45 minutes of deco to do.
I don't rip on computers because I dive DIR, I switched to DIR because I had so many problems with computers.
IF you noted the list in my last post, the things that failed the most on me all have electronics- which might explain my reluctance to switch to a rebreather.
If it uses bastteries it will fail on you sooner or later.You'll go over all of these points in more detail when you take the Advanced nitrox and deco class in the spring.
Jon