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Out of Air Method - Dewit2it - 11-27-2006

I was wondering about how the DIR method for out of air ascent compares to what I learned with NASDS.

My rig:
Right side: primary reg, console/comp, drysuit inflator line
Left side: octopus, inflator
BC: front adjust or stabilizer jacket

Training:
When you see the diver approach giving the sign for out of air, grab him with the left hand and try to keep him away from you.  At the same time you should grab the octopus reg with the right hand and offer it to him.  Once he has it in and has a chance to calm down, give him the hand signal for "are you okay?".  Once he replies with an OK, ask him if he is OK to surface.  Once he gives the OK, then bring him closer and have him grab onto both sides of your BC.  Then dump his BC and then take your console/comp in your right hand and grab his BC.  In the left hand grab your inflator, and grab his BC.  Then take him to the surface on your BC.  Once on the surface, have him inflate his BC before you let him go.

I can understand the need for a long hose on wreck penetration/cave dives, but for rec use 40" seems fine if not a little long using this method.  A couple of the things that I like about this method is that you do not become seperated without both divers letting go.  Also the gear configuration keeps a panicked diver away from your primary reg as much as possible.  It also allows you to check your instruments and the diver easily. 

The reason I bring this up is, I have watched the way PADI is teaching it, and also saw the same thing on a video.  In both cases the students became seperated in the water, with regulators getting yanked out of mouths.  That scares the sh :o out of me that they are getting taught that way. 

I'm all for bringing back the old 10 week course!  You have time to learn more and become a better diver.

Re: Out of Air Method - Chris H - 11-27-2006

You always donate what you are breathing, and the 2nd stage is all the OOA diver needs to fix the problem.  There is no need to grab the OOA diver anywhere, and the diver can control their own buoyancy.  They are OOA, not incapacitated.  There isn't an octopus either, only a backup regulator.    You get what is in my mouth at the time of the OOA and I go to my backup.

Re: Out of Air Method - LKunze - 11-27-2006

DIR divers tend to have their buoyancy skills in check and should not have an issue with drifting far away from their buddy causing the reg to be ripped out of their mouth by running out of hose.  For new divers that have undeveloped diving skills or divers with poor diving skills, the grab onto your buddy thing is probably best.  In either case though donating the primary regulator on a long hose and switching to the bungee backup regulator is still the easiest and best way to go in my opinion rather than fumbling for an octo mounted somewhere on your BC. 
Personally, I have a real problem with this method.  The last thing I want to be doing or my buddy doing is screwing around with each others gear...particularly the inflator hose.  This is completely unnecessary and has the potential for creating a CF situation real fast.  The only reason a diver shouldn't be able to control their own buoyancy on ascent sharing air is if one of the divers becomes incapacitated at which point you are not really sharing air but trying to get your buddy to the surface as fast as you safely can or if your buddy has a BC failure due to a tear or puncture.

Re: Out of Air Method - LKunze - 11-27-2006

As an added side note to my previous post, I am not a total "DIR" diver but do configure my gear as DIR and practice many of the DIR principles in my diving.  FWIW I have done an out of gas ascent with my buddy from 150 feet at Wazee using the DIR method of donating the primary on 7 foot hose.  It worked quite well without any problems.  We did a safe ascent side by side without holding onto each other at all.

Re: Out of Air Method - Dewit2it - 11-27-2006

Dumping the BC prevents you from getting dragged to the surface by his BC.  That way you are in control of the ascent.  For rec diving, chances are if they are running a cylinder dry, they don't have good buoyancy control either.  Also you may be dealing with a diver in a near panic state, so he may not be thinking properly.

We were taught not to fumble the octo and to get it up almost as fast as the hand keeping the diver at arms length.  If not, the instructor would grab your primary. (good incentive to know your system well)  Giving the primary away was frowned upon.(like with the Air II) 

Re: Out of Air Method - Chris H - 11-27-2006


Not somebody I want to be in the water with...one of the beauties of paying a little extra for a six pack charter full of like minded divers. ;D  On the flip side, why can't a recreational diver not have good buoyancy skills and decent situational awareness?

Of course you were taught not to fumble with the octo, I think the point Lonnie was making is that it is almost inevitable.  It is also likely that it isn't in the little holder it is supposed to be in and it has been dragging in the sand too, but the diver that needs air shouldn't mind either of those things.  It is obviously very important that the diver having the OOA gets a working regulator that is supplying gas that is safe to breathe at the depth you are at.  The diver that is donating the long hose is supplying just that.  He knows it is working properly because he was just using it.    He can then go to the backup on a bugee around his neck, or buddy breathe with the other diver if need  be.

Funny you should mention "Knowing your system well".  That is one of the inherent beauties of DIR.

As far as controlling the ascent, oftentimes when there is a gas share, a diver can't go to the surface.  An example would be a deco obligation.  As I stated earlier, when the OOA diver gets a working reg in their mouth, the emergency is over.  There is no reason to freak out and go shooting to the surface.  It is a perfect time to get your bearings back, calm down, watch Todd do a few back kicks, and safely ascend to the next stop.

Re: Out of Air Method - LKunze - 11-27-2006

Couldn't of said it any better Chris.  Wink

Re: Out of Air Method - dfreeman - 11-27-2006

I have had the unfortunate experience being in several real life out of air emergencies.  I originally used the PADI method described below.  However, I found that half the time my buddy would rip the regulator out of my mouth faster than I could get to my secondary regulator.

Therefore, I went to the long hose with the plan to give the primary regulator to my buddy and go to my secondary.

Unfortunately, I got the chance to try this out for real at 150 feet in Lake Wazee when my buddy ran flat out of air.  I gave him my primary with no problem and got control of the situation fast.  The hard part for my narc'ed out mind (yes I was on air) was to remember to put my secondary regulator in my mouth.  Well the secondary was right where I needed it under my Chinny-Chin-Chin and all went well from there.

In most of these circumstances I ended up taking control of the buoyancy control for both of us.  To some extent this was because my partner was really nervous and part of me being a little of a control freak under these circumstances. 

Do not underestimate how nervous an out of air person can be.  In one case, I started sharing air at 70 feet by the line with 1,100 psig in my steel LP95 and barely had enough air to make it to the boat.  At 150 feet in Lake Wazee, I started sharing air with 2,800 psig in my E8-130 and hit the shore with 500 psig.  You can feel the regulator cycling.  So get to the surface soon when it is the real deal.

Well that is my story, I hope this helps.  I am sure that people will find fault with several things in this story.  I guess I am a humble stroke.

Doug

Re: Out of Air Method - mndiver - 11-28-2006

Great discussion! 

I have been in an OOA situation as the donor and the recipient.  Diving the Flower Gardens in the Gulf of Mexico, coming up from 110',  I heard a loud pop and my first stage shut off with over 1000 psi remaining (&#$% POS reg).  Close enough to my buddy to get air, far enough to make it a challenge with the current.   Another time, a diver had a free flow.  Both were educational, both were with people I had not dove with before. The second guy wasn't even my buddy, I was just close by.

Everyone is somewhere on the learning curve.  As life gets in the way, we loose buddies and gain new ones.  Even within a "like minded" group, there are new people and more experienced people.  You may end up with a SOB (same ocean buddy). You know, someone that is OOA and drowning near you in the water.  You just can't ignore them when they are drowning  because they don't dive "your way."  At some point you will end up with buddies trained different than you with skill levels differnet than your own. 

Thankfully OOA does not happen often.   When it does, bad things can happen.  So,  my suggestion is to train often, train different ways and be prepared for lots of ways to share air.  Before the dive - discuss OOA with your buddy and rehearse air sharing before.  Heck, discuss how the weight system, BCD, and regs work.  Discuss what both of your expectations are regarding "help," should it be needed.  As evidenced by this discussion, many divers have different expectations and equipment set-ups, it sure is a lot easier to figure it all out before the dive then during the dive....

NOTE: "like minded people" and "your way" are in no way shape or form intended as negative connotations for any one particular type of diving.  I am not trying to start a upwind peeing contest.  Just my PC way to include all training/diving styles. 

Re: Out of Air Method - Vtach - 11-28-2006



;D ;D ;D

Definitely prefer the long hose!  Before adapting to DIR/Hog I had a poseidon fail on me with Chris on the Milwaukee in 100+ and OOA'd on a standard hose...it sucked.....